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	<title>Comments on: Age 8 and Wanting a Sex Change</title>
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	<link>http://www.subtextmagazine.co.uk/2009/10/20/age-8-and-wanting-a-sex-change/</link>
	<description>Feminism, politics and culture magazine</description>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://www.subtextmagazine.co.uk/2009/10/20/age-8-and-wanting-a-sex-change/comment-page-1/#comment-71</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 20:53:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.subtextmagazine.co.uk/?p=420#comment-71</guid>
		<description>Thank-you Serena and yes, what you&#039;re saying is really important I feel. It&#039;s bizzare that I showed the documentary to my sociology students and they couldn&#039;t recognise the process of social gendering and the concept of gender being learnt was alien to them, and these are students who study the very processes of things like socialisation and so forth. I think it&#039;s so imbedded into society that it&#039;s hard for the majority of people to see outside the box and think that sex/gender are anything but biological facts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank-you Serena and yes, what you&#8217;re saying is really important I feel. It&#8217;s bizzare that I showed the documentary to my sociology students and they couldn&#8217;t recognise the process of social gendering and the concept of gender being learnt was alien to them, and these are students who study the very processes of things like socialisation and so forth. I think it&#8217;s so imbedded into society that it&#8217;s hard for the majority of people to see outside the box and think that sex/gender are anything but biological facts.</p>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://www.subtextmagazine.co.uk/2009/10/20/age-8-and-wanting-a-sex-change/comment-page-1/#comment-70</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 20:50:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.subtextmagazine.co.uk/?p=420#comment-70</guid>
		<description>Thank-you Natacha. Kessler and McKenna rings a bell, I read about them when I looked into this during my women&#039;s studies course - my memory is so bad. Thank-you for reminding me, I think I will have to go back to that book again soon because I find all these issues so interesting.

I certainly agree with the last point you make and I remember reading something about this kind of attitude being taken in the case of hermaphrodites and the &#039;assigning&#039; of their sex/gender.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank-you Natacha. Kessler and McKenna rings a bell, I read about them when I looked into this during my women&#8217;s studies course &#8211; my memory is so bad. Thank-you for reminding me, I think I will have to go back to that book again soon because I find all these issues so interesting.</p>
<p>I certainly agree with the last point you make and I remember reading something about this kind of attitude being taken in the case of hermaphrodites and the &#8216;assigning&#8217; of their sex/gender.</p>
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		<title>By: Natacha</title>
		<link>http://www.subtextmagazine.co.uk/2009/10/20/age-8-and-wanting-a-sex-change/comment-page-1/#comment-69</link>
		<dc:creator>Natacha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 00:09:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.subtextmagazine.co.uk/?p=420#comment-69</guid>
		<description>A very good and thoughtful piece Laura. 

For me the most worrying aspect of the programme personally was the way the narrator consistently used the wrong pronoun, presumably in an attempt to sensationalise the issue. So referring to a transboy as &#039;she&#039; to me seemed particluarly nasty. It was akin to calling black people &#039;coloured&#039; effectively an insult to these children who tried so hard to appear as the opposite sex.

One of the reasons why the transgirl may have been so keen to present an all-feminine image comes from the findings of Kessler &amp; McKenna in their 1978 book &quot;Gender&quot;. They investigated the way in which people assign gender to others and found that, contrary to what might be expected, just about everyone works on the principle of &#039;male or not-male&#039;. So that if there is just one masculine quality evident, the individual is considered male, and that it would take the complete absence of anything masculine before an individual is unambiguously considered female. 

One of the more unfortunate aspects of the gender binary system that we live with is the &quot;if it isn&#039;t heads it must be tails&quot; logic, which means gender recognition functions on the &#039;if it isn&#039;t male it must be female.&#039; principle. This may go some way to explaining why male-to-female transgendered people go to such extreme lengths to be appear feminine, they are subconsciously aware of the need to ensure that they display nothing masculine at all in order to be confident at being considered female.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A very good and thoughtful piece Laura. </p>
<p>For me the most worrying aspect of the programme personally was the way the narrator consistently used the wrong pronoun, presumably in an attempt to sensationalise the issue. So referring to a transboy as &#8217;she&#8217; to me seemed particluarly nasty. It was akin to calling black people &#8216;coloured&#8217; effectively an insult to these children who tried so hard to appear as the opposite sex.</p>
<p>One of the reasons why the transgirl may have been so keen to present an all-feminine image comes from the findings of Kessler &amp; McKenna in their 1978 book &#8220;Gender&#8221;. They investigated the way in which people assign gender to others and found that, contrary to what might be expected, just about everyone works on the principle of &#8216;male or not-male&#8217;. So that if there is just one masculine quality evident, the individual is considered male, and that it would take the complete absence of anything masculine before an individual is unambiguously considered female. </p>
<p>One of the more unfortunate aspects of the gender binary system that we live with is the &#8220;if it isn&#8217;t heads it must be tails&#8221; logic, which means gender recognition functions on the &#8216;if it isn&#8217;t male it must be female.&#8217; principle. This may go some way to explaining why male-to-female transgendered people go to such extreme lengths to be appear feminine, they are subconsciously aware of the need to ensure that they display nothing masculine at all in order to be confident at being considered female.</p>
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		<title>By: Serena</title>
		<link>http://www.subtextmagazine.co.uk/2009/10/20/age-8-and-wanting-a-sex-change/comment-page-1/#comment-61</link>
		<dc:creator>Serena</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 00:53:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.subtextmagazine.co.uk/?p=420#comment-61</guid>
		<description>Thank you Laura for raising an important debate. I thought I was alone. Being born into a body of the wrong sex was not treated in a sensitive or informed way in this documentary. At the gendering of toys, with dinosaurs and cars for boys and dolls for girls, I despaired. A male friend of mine recently visited my house and saw a poster of a vintage car on the wall and couldn&#039;t help but comment on its place in my house. The words slipped as easily from his mouth as his greeting. Social gendering obviously isn&#039;t dead but thank goodness neither are websites like this one. The real turning point for me however was after the male who identifies as a girl was taken to the beauty parlour, given blonde highlights on long locks and told &#039;you look like a beautiful girl&#039;. A person identifying as female, whether born female or not; should not be taken to a beauty parlour aged 8-10 and given a head of highlights as a lesson in being female. It is gender stereotyping gone mad. I have never grown my short hair to long in all my years of living, and have never had to lean on hair as a crutch for my gender or sexuality. Parents like that are putting unnecessary demands on young children to conform to meaningless gender stereotypes. Whether their children are identifying as boys or girls so be it. But don&#039;t give them the extra burden of the gender roles of a mad society on top of their dysphoria. With regards to literature I’d recommend Judith Butler’s- Gender Trouble from my degree studies, but I assume you read it on yours. Thanks again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Laura for raising an important debate. I thought I was alone. Being born into a body of the wrong sex was not treated in a sensitive or informed way in this documentary. At the gendering of toys, with dinosaurs and cars for boys and dolls for girls, I despaired. A male friend of mine recently visited my house and saw a poster of a vintage car on the wall and couldn&#8217;t help but comment on its place in my house. The words slipped as easily from his mouth as his greeting. Social gendering obviously isn&#8217;t dead but thank goodness neither are websites like this one. The real turning point for me however was after the male who identifies as a girl was taken to the beauty parlour, given blonde highlights on long locks and told &#8216;you look like a beautiful girl&#8217;. A person identifying as female, whether born female or not; should not be taken to a beauty parlour aged 8-10 and given a head of highlights as a lesson in being female. It is gender stereotyping gone mad. I have never grown my short hair to long in all my years of living, and have never had to lean on hair as a crutch for my gender or sexuality. Parents like that are putting unnecessary demands on young children to conform to meaningless gender stereotypes. Whether their children are identifying as boys or girls so be it. But don&#8217;t give them the extra burden of the gender roles of a mad society on top of their dysphoria. With regards to literature I’d recommend Judith Butler’s- Gender Trouble from my degree studies, but I assume you read it on yours. Thanks again.</p>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://www.subtextmagazine.co.uk/2009/10/20/age-8-and-wanting-a-sex-change/comment-page-1/#comment-53</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 20:38:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.subtextmagazine.co.uk/?p=420#comment-53</guid>
		<description>Sorry, I should have made it clearer that I was referring to deceit only in the context of them being children and ethical implications with that. I am not implying that it is deceitful for trans people in general not to inform their partner of such details but rather when it&#039;s a situation involving &#039;minors&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, I should have made it clearer that I was referring to deceit only in the context of them being children and ethical implications with that. I am not implying that it is deceitful for trans people in general not to inform their partner of such details but rather when it&#8217;s a situation involving &#8216;minors&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Gianna</title>
		<link>http://www.subtextmagazine.co.uk/2009/10/20/age-8-and-wanting-a-sex-change/comment-page-1/#comment-52</link>
		<dc:creator>Gianna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 11:36:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.subtextmagazine.co.uk/?p=420#comment-52</guid>
		<description>Yes, the narrator&#039;s use of pronouns was incredibly patronising. I felt the documentary really only skimmed the surface of this complex issue. It would have been nice to have heard from a Trans activist group too, with more discussion about the wider social context and implications of identifying as trans at such a young age.

As for the moral issue of whether you should always inform partners about being trans - why would it amount to deceit if you didn&#039;t tell them? If your partner is attracted to you then they are attracted to you, surely it shouldn&#039;t matter how you identify your gender or sex. If you believe that we need to open up our thinking on the restrictive gender binary of male and female, then surely we need to also adjust our traditional categories of sexuality (e.g. &#039;straight&#039;, &#039;gay&#039;) accordingly.

Plus, the deceit argument would imply that trans people are always obligated to &#039;come out&#039; to every sexual partner they have, because it would be deceitful not to. But, by this logic, you could say that trans people are in a sense &#039;deceiving&#039; everyone by &#039;fooling&#039; them into believing they are a different sex! Which, clearly, is rather daft. 

It was an interesting topic to raise, though. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, the narrator&#8217;s use of pronouns was incredibly patronising. I felt the documentary really only skimmed the surface of this complex issue. It would have been nice to have heard from a Trans activist group too, with more discussion about the wider social context and implications of identifying as trans at such a young age.</p>
<p>As for the moral issue of whether you should always inform partners about being trans &#8211; why would it amount to deceit if you didn&#8217;t tell them? If your partner is attracted to you then they are attracted to you, surely it shouldn&#8217;t matter how you identify your gender or sex. If you believe that we need to open up our thinking on the restrictive gender binary of male and female, then surely we need to also adjust our traditional categories of sexuality (e.g. &#8217;straight&#8217;, &#8216;gay&#8217;) accordingly.</p>
<p>Plus, the deceit argument would imply that trans people are always obligated to &#8216;come out&#8217; to every sexual partner they have, because it would be deceitful not to. But, by this logic, you could say that trans people are in a sense &#8216;deceiving&#8217; everyone by &#8216;fooling&#8217; them into believing they are a different sex! Which, clearly, is rather daft. </p>
<p>It was an interesting topic to raise, though. <img src='http://www.subtextmagazine.co.uk/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Charlotte</title>
		<link>http://www.subtextmagazine.co.uk/2009/10/20/age-8-and-wanting-a-sex-change/comment-page-1/#comment-48</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlotte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 09:23:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.subtextmagazine.co.uk/?p=420#comment-48</guid>
		<description>I only caught the very end, literally a  minute of the show and was shocked that they continually ungendered the transboy calling him &quot;her&quot; and &quot;she&quot; I don&#039;t know if they did this with all the kids, but what a pathetic attempt at tackling the issue if so.

It was offensive and undermining.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I only caught the very end, literally a  minute of the show and was shocked that they continually ungendered the transboy calling him &#8220;her&#8221; and &#8220;she&#8221; I don&#8217;t know if they did this with all the kids, but what a pathetic attempt at tackling the issue if so.</p>
<p>It was offensive and undermining.</p>
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